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Introduction

School leaders play a vital role in providing every student in NSW public schools with a great education and the best start in life. They have a positive impact in classrooms and on their staff. They guide teacher development and engage their communities. Here at the NSW Department of ÌÇÐÄvlog¹ÙÍø's School Leadership Institute our mission is to support all NSW public school leaders by providing world class evidence, informed leadership development programs and resources.

Our podcasts will explore the key issues and challenges of school leadership. Hosted by Joanne Jarvis, the director of the School Leadership Institute, tune in and listen to our guests and colleagues share their expertise, insights and wisdom on leading with purpose and impact. Welcome to our Leadership in Focus series.

Joanne Jarvis

Hello and welcome to episode 21 of the Leadership in Focus podcast series. I'm Joanne Jarvis and I'm the director of the NSW Department of ÌÇÐÄvlog¹ÙÍø’s School Leadership Institute. In the second instalment of our teacher leadership series, we continue to explore what teacher leadership is, why it matters, and the difference it makes in classrooms, schools and across the system.

Throughout this series, we're unpacking 3 central themes: strengthening teacher practice, strengthening schools and strengthening the system as a whole. In this episode, I'm joined by 2 principals whose teachers have completed the School Leadership Institute's Teacher Leader Development Program. Together we delve into how developing teacher leaders can strengthen schools, particularly through deeper collaboration, more meaningful feedback and richer professional learning.

Now with me, are principals Lucy Nourish and Joumana Youssef. Lucy Norrish is the principal of Nicholson Street Public School in Balmain, a small K-6 school known for its inclusive culture and high impact teacher practice. With 22 years’ experience across NSW and as a Dean of Instruction in Brooklyn, Lucy is deeply committed to teacher leadership, equity and evidence informed school improvement. She believes every teacher is a leader and that collaborative reflective practice drives meaningful change for students and staff.

Joumana Youssef is the principal of Granville South Creative and Performing Arts High School, recognised for its inclusive culture, creative pathways and strong wellbeing programs. A coaching focused leader, she has built teacher and emerging leader capability across her career. Named Granville’s Local Woman of the Year and acknowledged in NSW Parliament, Joumana is driven by the power of strong relationships, purposeful collaboration and high expectations to help every student thrive.

Welcome both Lucy and Joumana.

Joumana and Lucy

Thank you.

Joanne

Joumana I’m going to ask you the first question. Recent research by Bixler and Cellabos highlights the importance of principals creating a clear vision for teacher leadership. What’s your vision for teacher leadership in your school, and what has shaped that vision? 

Joumana

My vision for a teacher leadership is grounded in the belief that schools thrive when leadership is shared. So when leadership is shared, it's intentional and aligned to a clear culture of trust and collaboration that then allows opportunities for staff to be able to, for distributed leadership to take place in the school. At our school in particular, our school plan focuses on being committed to building leadership capacity for our staff.

We have structured mentoring and coaching programs that develop teacher capability building specifically in in leadership. We have a deliberate approach in identifying who our aspiring leaders are. And those aspiring leaders, we provide them with opportunities to be able to take on leadership training. It doesn't matter whether they are an executive, it doesn't matter what position they hold within the school.

What's important is that if there is opportunity for teachers and they are ready and willing to take on the leadership capability building, then we embed that in their teaching practice and we provide those opportunities throughout the day. Rather than an add on, we try and make it part of the work that they do. Part of the vision that we that I have in particular is to empower teachers to give the voice, to give them agency. Also to be able to provide them with the resources and opportunities.

Joanne

So Lucy, what are your thoughts?

Lucy

So my thoughts on teacher, developing teacher leadership are particularly in line with a small school. So leadership is a way of being at Nico and because we are a small school, everybody becomes a leader and it's a way of being and doing and thinking.

The vision that we share is not just my vision or the principal's vision. The vision is a community vision that is shared consistently and aligned with what we do, and that is really deeply entrenched in the purpose, the purpose of why we do what we do, and that is in service of every single student to allow them access to growth and to opportunity.

So within that, it's the articulation of the vision and it's sharing that leadership vision in intentional language, in our big picture, in our SEP, in our school excellence plan, reverting to our school improvement framework and also in our weekly bulletins and newsletters.

But it's also in the intentional language we as a team are using every single day in that we are all leaders sharpening our saw every day in service of our students.

Joanne

And Joumana, I also noticed that you were able to use the role descriptions as a developmental aspirational tool as well. So it's not just saying, well, you can't do the job until you're actually meeting these requirements. It's actually showing the role descriptions as an opportunity to articulate what leadership might look like in in different ways across your school too.

Joumana

That's exactly right because providing staff with those opportunities doesn't necessarily mean that those teachers want to, for example, move up the ranks in regards to positions, but they get the opportunity to understand how the whole school operates, and they are able then to contribute their part in decision making and also to be able to explain to other staff having that ripple effect, to other staff to again have that discussion about moral purpose and what's our vision and where are we heading.

Joanne

And therefore have that influence as well. Very powerful. Joumana, what forms of professional learning do you believe are most valuable for teacher leaders and why?

Joumana

The most valuable professional learning I think that is required for teacher leaders is one that's job-embedded, one that's part of their day to day practice, again not an add-on. One that's also sustained and that involves reflection. So for example, with Sairah, she was one of the teacher leaders that I was working with, she wanted to work on developing her self-confidence and communication skills.

I never provided her with answers. I always guided her through her approach. And again, I found to be very beneficial because she was building her capacity of problem solving along the way rather than me providing her with the answers. I saw her grow in her strengths in regard to possible solutions and approaches to these issues.

So at her professional learning community session, she invited me to observe her. I observed her deliver the session. She was able to actually implement some of the approaches that we had discussed. And from that I could then see that she had obviously applied what we had discussed. We had a feedback session which was really constructive, where I spoke about, you know, what she did really, really well and where she could improve.

And she found that to be very beneficial because I can now see how she's actually refined her communication approach. And she's grown in confidence, not just through her PLC sessions, but also with the way she addresses her faculty, with the way she speaks to her year groups and the way she speaks to parents. And so the type of learning that I think is really valuable for teacher leaders is to be able to model the approach, to have the conversation, to be reflective on what it is that they really want to problem solve, work on that collaborative problem solving and then provide that really constructive feedback in a psychological safe way so that they able to then apply it and to build their leadership capacity.

Joanne

Thank you for sharing that example. Lucy, how have you approached professional learning with your teacher leaders?

Lucy

So in my principal teaching role, I take on, I walk alongside a teaching component. Therefore I'm in the trenches with the teachers. And so walking alongside, building that collective efficacy as teachers as learners, and everybody is on a learning leadership journey,

It's also leadership in effecting change in the teacher next door and really supporting distributed leadership from a systems and processes perspective but also going back to that leverage is hard. How do we leverage people's purpose and at the heart of that drive change at school to affect change and improvement in our students?

Then we've got personal learning goals for every single staff member, not just living with class teachers, but with our SLSOs and with office staff, with every single person that enters the school, we all have a personal learning goal.

So from those personal learning goals, we call them PLGs, from those personal learning goals, what happens is that weekly, in our weekly collaborative meetings, the teacher chooses their personal learning goals based on their PDP, in line with our School Excellence Plan and also their vision for where they're at.

And then from that they do a little bit of research. They do some own research and consistently then provide research with their goal. And then from that they design and co-collaborate with a learning buddy. And that's not always the mentor, that could be also another teacher. And we also we cross collaborate because we are a small school, we use other schools, and so there's that opportunity for growth and high potentiality to affect change not only in our own community but across communities.

And so you have somebody come in and actually observe your practice when you are in the implementation phase of, or the engagement phase of your personal learning goal. Then you have a feedback feedforward meeting. So there’s a meeting directly after that when you're going live with your implementation of your goals and then you have a few days to kind of reset and then there's a meeting.

And after that feedback conversation, you then do some more implementation to further embed. And then after that you present to the staff. So that's the really fun part where you get that recognition that, wow, I've gone down into the depths of the leadership of the, so the learning pit, and now the other side, and I feel like I'm implementing this practice effectively embedded. So I've reached my goal.

Joanne

Certainly a very coherent and comprehensive approach to developing the leadership capabilities of your whole team. So thank you for sharing that powerful example Lucy.

Joumana, research highlights that trust is fundamental to collaboration, and I'm hearing a lot about collaboration coming through in both of your responses. How do you foster the conditions for teacher leaders to collaborate with their colleagues, and how do you as a principal collaborate with teacher leaders yourself?

Joumana

What's fundamental to the conditions is to allow again opportunity for the collaboration to take place. So ensuring that there is dedicated time allocated to be able to actually meet.

The other one that's most important is having that trust. So the staff to feel that there's that psychological safety to be able to actually feel safe, to reflect on their practice, to talk about trying new approaches and also to have that really open and engaging dialogue.

Setting clear expectations at the very beginning of the partnership is very important because that then develops that relational trust, that you are committed to supporting the staff member and supporting that growth, but also dedicating your time to be able to actually do that.

So one of the things that Sairah and I did was very early on is to establish meeting norms, and part of that was that we were going to maintain confidentiality, not to share stories or to mention staff members names. And that allowed Sairah the freedom and the flexibility then to be able to discuss what the issues were that she was facing and not have that judgement attached to it at all.

We also spoke very openly in regards to what were the actual core issues that she was facing. She was really vulnerable in regards to sharing what were some of the areas that she really wanted to develop in regards to her confidence. And we know that confidence is an area that is sensitive. So we got the opportunity to actually be able to actually unpack that right down to the nitty gritty. And I was able to share my vulnerabilities and some of the things that I had experienced myself in regards to what it was like when I first started to have to speak with public forums, things like that.

And I think that shared those shared stories and those shared experiences then allowed her to become more open and to build that relationship trust throughout the further meetings that we had.

So there was that notion of accountability on her part too, to actually be committed to her own leadership development. And we were then able to, at the beginning of the next session that we had, I would open up with, how did you go?

So you said you were going to trial this particular approach. How did you go with that? And I think that's really important when people, staff are committing to these leadership programs. It's not about just attending the program and getting the certificate and things like that. It's about the accountability of are you going to be able to actually apply what you've learnt and then be able to improve yourself.

So it's something I'm really passionate about. So I actually look forward to having those. And we continue those meetings even after she’d finished the teacher leadership program.

Joanne

Wow, that's impressive. Lucy, you talked a bit about accountability before, but you've also you've been both a supervisor and a mentor to teacher leaders in your school. And we heard, you know, the processes that you've put in place to enable those conditions to flourish in your setting. What do you see is the key challenges and benefits of providing feedback while navigating those dual roles that you have?

Lucy

Really good question. The duality of supervisor, mentor, leader is really tricky and I think it's something that principals do really well most days because you, the complexity of the role, you go in and out of so many different roles dependent upon who your target audience are. However, I think what makes the duality of supervisor, mentor, coach and principal really effective at Nico is that, and I use the word coach very intentionally there, we become the coach.

So whilst I have the playbook, that playbook is written together and I'm not just cheering on from the sidelines, but we are creating the plays as we go and that is truly a testament to having a really robust, flexible thinking team. And so knowing my people, knowing my players and making sure that they are in the right spot to grab that ball and run with it, or if they don't get that kick, let's try again, let's practice, let's focus on we are a team moving in the same direction and I am the coach.

Not with all the answers. You're the star player here. You are my key quarterback and you are going to run fast with that ball. And I am here to help you. And this is just with my experience and my expertise, my playbook. Oh, but you think that's going to work? Let's give it a try. I'm here cheering you on.

And it's about development. We focus on developmental rather than that critical analysis. So we keep it, we house it firmly in our instructional leadership growth of why we do what we do going back to purpose. And it's highly tailored towards meaningful feedback, the celebration of our personal learning goals, and really keying into those strengths of the team. And knowing that everybody brings strength, everybody brings development. And that's true of particularly being in an educational role and building that relational trust in that duality of role.

Joanne

And I can say while you were speaking, Joumana is nodding vigorously in agreement about the kinds of things you are talking about. And Joumana, I know you work very closely with teacher leaders at your school and it gives you great joy. How do you balance giving the guidance that's required for teacher leaders with also giving them the space to lead, and what has that taught you as a leader?

Joumana

I think it's taught me to be non-judgemental in the sense of balancing out what are sort of, you know, accountability and compliance things in comparison to being able to give that teacher that non-judgmental space to actually be able to listen to them, to guide them, and also to align them back to schoolwide expectations and things like that.

Joanne

Now what do you see Lucy as the impact of effective teacher leaders on both teacher practice and student learning in your school now?

Lucy

I think I'll start with the end in mind, and that is the most important thing. Why we all do what we do, and that's increased outcomes for the students. And yes, that's academic rigour. However, that's also seeing a student that doesn't like to engage in a conversation be part of a conversation and really put their views forward in a classroom of really assertive other students. That could be working with a specific needs student on just even entering the classroom.

So really thinking the whole child in developing outcomes for students to ensure that they all feel that they can participate and have a voice actively in our Australian society. And that is why we need to always develop our leadership. And the teacher as the leader makes that key difference.

Joanne

So, Joumana, we've talked about the fact that your numbers are growing in a creative and performing arts high school, a very busy place, a place that would no doubt have a really strong vibe. And congratulations on achieving that culture where you've got the growth in enrolment.

It would also require of you to have a strong culture of supporting teacher leaders at your school. What have you seen as the impact of your leadership on developing those effective teacher leader practices and also the impact on the students at your school?

Joumana

I guess one of the biggest changes that we've seen here is the ripple effect that has been created across the school in regards to teacher leaders being given opportunities to develop their capability. And that focus on that collective staff efficacy has meant that there's a stronger instructional practice, there's a lot more collaboration that's taking place. So that culture of collaborative work is very much a part of what we do here at Granville South.

And also that direct improvement of student outcomes. So one of the things that really sums it up is that when we're seeing teachers refining their practice, it's actually lifting the quality of all the teachers around them to want to be involved and also want to be a part of that.

So it's that inspirational part where they're seeing the success, they're seeing what's happening in that space and they're now more willing and able to say that I would like to be a part of that.

Joanne

This is a good time to conclude the podcast. I've learnt so much from both of you about the way you are leading your school to support the growth of teacher leaders so that they can also impact on student outcomes, but also the way that they appear to be impacting on the leadership learning of their colleagues.

So it's a really both really different examples, but both really impressive examples that have occurred because of your leadership. So I really thank you for your service as principals in NSW public education and for the obvious impact that you're having Joumana and Lucy. And thank you for joining us today.

Lucy

Thank you so much for having me here today. It's been an absolute pleasure to listen and learn from you both Joumana and Joanne, Thank you.

Joumana

I also want to thank you for this opportunity. Joanne, you have done some amazing work in the SLI space and I also want to congratulate Lucy on she's been able to do at her school and be able to build our future leaders.

Joanne

And for NSW Department of ÌÇÐÄvlog¹ÙÍø Staff, you can access our leadership resources on the Department's website. So thank you for listening